Should wheelchairs have priority over pushchairs on buses? I ask because a man is taking his case to the Supreme Court after he sued a bus company when he wasn’t allowed to board a bus because a mum with a buggy refused to move.
Appeal judges ruled that the mum was within her rights not to move her sleeping baby in a pram that wouldn’t fold, and the wheelchair user wasn’t unlawfully discriminated against, but he disagrees and wants the decision overturned.
His case has been allowed because it raises an issue of public importance, which I think is exactly right: isn’t it time bus companies install designated buggy areas on buses, totally separate from the wheelchair area?
As a mum who takes a pushchair on a bus every afternoon on the school run (one of the reasons I hate the school run) I can see the argument from both sides.
Of course buggy-pushing parents should move over or collapse their pushchairs to make way for wheelchair users if they possibly can. Wheelchairs have priority and the area is there for them.
But collapsing a pushchair on a bus is often simply not practical. My pushchair is routinely loaded down with shopping, nappy bag, BB’s book bag and PE Kit, which would need to be stowed somewhere before I could collapse the pushchair (which folds into two pieces), and where are you supposed to put the baby while all this is going on?
This wheelchair user says it isn’t right that he and other wheelchair users should wait for a bus ‘nervously looking to see if anyone is in the wheelchair space’ and that the wheelchair space is the only place on the bus that wheelchair users can travel in, and if they aren’t available then wheelchair users can’t travel.
But mums and dads also wait nervously at bus stops hoping the wheelchair area isn’t already occupied because it’s the only area of the bus they can travel in too, and if it’s occupied they can’t travel either. I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve been unable to board a bus because the area is full and I’ve had to wait for the next one to come along.
If there were separate wheelchair and buggy areas, some of this anxiety would be alleviated – particularly for the wheelchair user as there tend to be more buggies on buses than wheelchairs.
I understand why this wheelchair user felt discriminated against, and I think parents with buggies often feel discriminated against too. Bus travel in my neck of the woods is already weighted against parents with pushchairs.
Stickers on our buses declare ‘small prams only’, which immediately makes you question the size of yours and feel like you’re an inconvenience, and just this week I boarded a bus only for the man next to me to mutter ‘bloody pushchairs’ as I manoeuvred mine into position (expertly, I might add). I looked him in the eye and gave him my brightest smile, the miserable old s*d.
But the miserable old s*d aside, until there are separate designated areas for wheelchairs and pushchairs the wheelchair vs buggy debate is going to rear its ugly head again and again.
I’ll be really interested to see what the Supreme Court judges make of it.
Do you ride buses with pushchairs? Do you think there should be separate wheelchair and buggy areas? Or are you or do you know a wheelchair user who has to battle with pushchairs? I’d love to hear your thoughts!
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I see your point but I don’t agree that separate areas for Prams and wheelchairs would solve the problem. It might help a bit, but what if the pram area was full of Prams and the wheelchair area full of wheelchairs? The person with either pram or wheelchair would have to wait for the next bus like you said you’ve had to. It’s tough luck, that’s how public transport works. London commuters don’t all fit on the tube and have to wait for the next one. They don’t sue anyone over it. I think this person is being over the top. They should instead be asking for more buses IMO!
Separate designated areas might not solve the problem but I think it would definitely help alleviate it…
Don’t get me started on this. As a regular bus user also I wait nervously 2-4 times a day just like you. I have waited in pouring rain while 3 buses have passed. I am lucky in that I often have a choice of buses and so can choose to take a bigger one with more space (if I walk for 15 minutes for the pleasure). As a buggy user I normally set out for a bus an hour before I need to just in case I can’t get in first few buses. I too feel very discriminated against. It isn’t so bad these days with my dinky buggy but when I had a newborn in a pram that didn’t fold, or a newborn and a toddler in the smallest double buggy I could get my hands on, I eventually gave up bothering! I don’t know what the answer is either but I’m glad other people have the same thoughts as me!
I always allow extra time too, just in case…
I’m a nanny and a mum and I hear you! I bring my own tandem buggy to work as I also have my own daughter who comes to work with me. Both the child I nanny for and my daughter are nine and ten months old and are unable to stand or walk so they have to be in the buggy. We need a separate space, mothers shouldn’t be made to feel angry and resentful because they have no other choice but to make themselves run late by vacating the only space they too can possibly travel in
Feel free to chain yourself to buses, get arrested and to lobby Parliament for 20 years like wheelchair users and other disabled people. In the meantime, don’t let your selfishness prevent disabled people traveling.
I’m not being selfish at all or at least trying not to be. I just think we should be fighting together for a common good rather than being pitted against each other. You will have to excuse me as I am dyslexic and find it very difficult to express what I’m thinking on paper. I can promise you that if we met face to face you would not feel that I was trying to stop disabled people from traveling at all.
That’s all well and good saying chain ourselves to busses as disabled people did. However whilst we are out and doing this who would be home looking after our children and babies our absence? Right now I am currently fighting for a better outcome for everybody involved and for better understanding of the needs of everyone. Saying that all mothers can always fold up their buggies with sleeping babies inside etc is just not an accurate assumption at all.
I can see both sides. I have travelled on buses with buggies but not often or recently. The trouble is both wheelchairs & buggies take a lot of space & to provide both would mean reducing seats & possibly upping fares. Will be interesting to see the verdict. #justanotherlinky lifeinthemumslane
I think fold-up seats that don’t compromise the wheelchair area are a really great idea…
I’m a nanny and I would happily pay a slightly higher bus fare in order to be almost garunteed a space for the baby. I also think it’s not safe to have the baby out of the buggy where there is no seatbelt or straps to keep them safe. If that bus had a major accident and a baby was on a mothers lap then what’s there to stop the mother falling off the seat and onto the baby (which would either kill a small baby or severely injure it) st least in a buggy they have some protection around them. For that reason alone I wouldn’t move out of the buggy space if I desperately needed to be on that particular bus, nothing is more important than the safety of the baby I’m taking care of. We should all be able to ride together but until that time I think the safety of babies should be held in as higher regard as people in wheel chairs.
“For that reason alone I wouldn’t move out of the buggy space”
If you’re in the buggy space, fair enough, no problem. If you’re in the wheelchair space, however, then you are behaving in an unacceptable and selfish fashion. The wheelchair space was not intended for use by non-disabled people with buggies. There’s a reason it’s called the wheelchair space, why every bus is mandated to have one, and why its design and specification is predicated on wheelchair dimensions: because it’s a wheelchair space meant for wheelchair users and was never intended to be a dual-use space.
If you want to have a separate space that can be used for pushchairs, then I support you all the way. In the meantime, though, I object to misuse of the wheelchair space by selfish non-disabled people. Don’t inflict your problems onto disabled people by abusing facilities specifically and only designed and implemented for disabled people.
I wonder if you park in disabled badge spaces because it’s easier and safer for you, or if you’ve bought a RADAR key so you can use disabled people’s toilets.
It is not acceptable for a non-disabled person to use the wheelchair space on a bus and to refuse to move when a disabled person needs it.
Great post! I could not agree more. I understand that wheelchairs can’t fold buggies like us but mummies paid their ticket as well. I am always dreading to have to get off a bus. I am also suprised that some other mummies with buggies are so unfriendly sometimes and wouldn’t make some space for another buggy to slide in… #justanotherlinky
You’re right about some people being unfriendly on buses – sometimes it’s like manners go out of the window!
You choose to be a parent. You don’t choose to be disabled. Why should anyone make room for you, let alone a disabled person made to wait?
I’m not suggesting a disabled person should be made to wait – I think if she wasn’t prepared to wake her baby this mother should have left the bus and waited for the next one so this man could continue his journey.
This is the most disgusting comment I’ve ever read. Yes we choose to become parents like most of the worlds population that does not in some way take away our rights to use public transport. Babies or not, buggies or not we have equal rights to use the bus and it is not possible to use the bus without our big new born buggies that fold down. It’s about having compassion for parents and wheel chair users. You are clearly not a parent or not a very good one of you are because you have no idea the struggles that are caused by having to have a buggy!! It’s parental and Carer discrimination. In my opinion it should be first come first serve. Why should my baby be made to wait in the cold an extra ten or fifteen minutes just because a disabled person gets on after us?! She shouldn’t
You might find it disgusting but it is true. Also to equate the inconvenience of being a parent with a pushchair with the difficulties experienced by disabled people is ridiculous and offensive.
The reason you should get off if a disabled person wants to get on is because you are abusing facilities specifically and only designed for wheelchair users. Such abuse has a profound effect on disabled people’s mobility – and disabled people experience such lifelong and through no choice of their own, unlike parents and pushchair users.
Here’s how we got that space put in: https://youtu.be/rSyxVE0WnbE There’s a blueprint for you to campaign for a space for buggy users. In the meantime, don’t abuse wheelchair spaces. (That’s what they are.) Why don’t you plonk your pushchair across several seats? No? Why is that not socially acceptable, but hogging spaces specifically and solely intended and designed for disabled people is?
You shouldn’t assume that everybody chose to become a parent, there are many situations where people have had parenthood thrust upon them.
And anyway yes,MOST have chosen to become parents. A woman’s desire to have babies is one of the most natural desires in the world! Unless you are a Mum yourself then you have no understanding of just how hard it is sometimes. We need to have equal understanding of mothers with little ones (who have probably kept her awake over half the night), being a mother is the hardest job in the world and the only one that is unpaid. If a mother has a toddler in a fold up buggy then that’s fine she should move but when she’s got small multiples in a correctly built travel system that doesn’t fold up (if it’s built properly then it shouldn’t be able to fold up because babies up to the age of 6 months at least, need to travel horizontal and with more padding than an umbrella stroller can offer) this makes it impossible for her to “just fold up the buggy” might I add a mother with a buggy is also a paying customer, a mother having to get off the bus and wait for the next one is simply not feasible. In some areas of this country busses only come one an hour, so your leaving a poor mother standing at a bus stop for an hour with babies who are probably cold tired and hungry =BABY MELTDOWN!!
Oh right, so leaving a mother and baby by a roadside is more problematic than leaving a wheelchair user at the roadside in the cold for an hour. I see.
You are still failing to see the fundamental issue that these are wheelchair spaces and you are selfishly abusing them. They are not buggy spaces.
The general rule of life though is first come first serve. It takes two hands to fold a newborn travel system (that’s if it even folds) where are you suppose to put the baby? Dirty floor perhaps? Or let it roll of the seat as the bus pulls away whilst your still trying to fold? Or do we have to awkwardly ask if another unwilling passenger will hold the baby? It’s not as easy as those childless people say it is to “just fold up”. Don’t get me wrong I will do everything I can to move but bus drivers or other members of public should be encouraged to help mums do so. Failing that then ththe driver should be obliged to assist
We are all human and shouldn’t be punished or treated as less human just because we decide to have children. Why should we have to pay two bus fares to get to our destination?
This is a really interesting post, and I’m fascinated to see what the outcome of that case is. I’ve not taken a buggy on the bus for a while, but used to do it several times a week with my son, when I was pregnant with my daughter, and it was really quite stressful, never knowing if there’d be room for us. I think if your buggy can be collapsed then, yes, you should do whatever you can to make room for a wheelchair user, but it’s not always that simple. x #KCACOLS
I completely agree x
It’s a difficult one! The only relevant thought I have to add is that it was the disabled community, not parents with pushchairs, who lobbied for wheelchair accessible spaces. Therefore if I were to judge this I might fall on his side. Unless he was a miserable b*stard.
I always used a sling with a small baby and a collapsible pushchair with an older one so it was never an issue for me. I think more people should use slings then it wouldn’t be an issue!
Yes you’re right – the only reason the wheelchair area on buses exists is because the disabled community lobbied for it…
I do agree with you but this isn’t always possible. At this point in time I was taking care of two nine month olds. There’s no way I could have both of them in a sling.
I really don’t know what the solution is to this one. I do know that I’m going to endeavour not to take F on a bus until he’s out of the pushchair though! And I’m amazed by the vitriol I’ve seen directed at “lazy mothers” on Twitter this week. I have a friend whose son is disabled, but since he is only 2 (and small for his age as he had Down Syndrome) he is still in the pushchair. She has been accused of laziness over and over again by both wheelchair users and other mothers with pushchairs. In all honesty, I think it’s more a matter of people being considerate and compassionate. #KCACOLS
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head – it’s about manners and decency and common sense!
This is such an interesting post. I haven’t been on a bus for years but the last time I did, my only concern was whether the buggy/wheelchair area was full. Maybe this needs to be more about the provisions? Are there enough? Maybe fold down seating across the whole bus would be more beneficial? #KCACOLS xx
The buses with six or seven fold-up seats along the side are the best – that leaves the wheelchair area free and space for up to five pushchairs x
/i read it again and still have the same opinion #KCACOLS
Thanks for popping back!
I would be on the side of the wheelchair user really, as it does say on the bus that you should move for them, but I also know as a bus user the anxiety of being on the bus with a pushciar. I often sit there hoping and praying for the whole journey that no other pushchairs or anyone in a wheelchair gets on as I dont know how I would manage to handle my baby and fold up the pushchair….(also praying that he doesnt have a meldown before we get to our stop!!)
Interesting post x
#KCACOLS
I find it quite stressful too, especially if the bus is busy. Double deckers with a row of fold-up seats are the best x
This is a good debate and I can totally see both sides of the argument. Of course if its a stroller and the child can sit on the seat then yes it should be folded, but if the little one is asleep and or the buggy s laden with bags etc then it becomes harder. I suppose it all depends on space. Wheelchair or pushchair they should both be equal depending on situation #kcacols
I think it’s important for wheelchairs to have priority as the wheelchair user has no other option but to travel in that space, and while a pushchair only fits in that space too nine times out of 10 they can be folded down…
Has there been any thought as to what would happen if a mother or nanny (I’m a nanny) for example
Had twins in a buggy and a wheel chair user got on? I know from my professional nanny training that if a newborn buggy is correctly built then it actually shouldn’t be able to be folded up and even if it could, how could she possibly hold on to two or even three of them if she had a toddler and twin babies as well? Should the same rules still apply do you think?
Of course.
It’s a wheelchair space.
The same rules absolutely should apply.
And do.
Do you have children?
9 times out of 10 they actually can’t be folded down. Newborn buggies can’t be folded due to being made correctly might I add. The travel system I use can be folded but it takes two hands and a screw driver to do it. Needless to say it’s not possible to do it on a bus. People don’t realise how every day things become almost impossible when you have kids. I know it’s impossible when your disabled as well hence why I think that the needs of over whelmed and stressed out mothers should be equal. I don’t believe that any one persons journey should be seen as more important than that of another person no matter who you are.
It’s a tricky one. While I’m a mum who regularly travels on buses with a pushchair, I’d probably have to side with the wheelchair user because he has no other option – mums can use collapsable strollers or a baby carrier. I’m using the carrier more often these days, mostly because my daughter gets fussy on the bus and wants to get out of the stroller to see what’s going on. Of course, the downside to a carrier is that there’s nowhere to store shopping, so it can get a bit awkward at times. #KCACOLS
Carriers are a good option and I always have mine in the bottom of the pushchair in case it’s needed!
There is no debate. A person with disabilities has no choice of any kind but to be disabled. Those who use wheelchairs must travel in their wheelchair. So, if you feel you really MUST travel with a pram make absolutely certain it is not loaded down and is able to be folded away. And do your best NOT to travel with a pram on public transport. You have options. They do not.
And yes, I have two children, now teenagers, and travelled from Scotland, to England, across parts of the USA and then to Australia with them when they were little. I once sat in a toilet for an hour on the train from London to Glasgow so nobody else had to listen to my screaming 6 month old child.
Not planning to check back for replies, because the astonishing over entitlement of some parents is genuinely cringeworthy and I fully anticipate I will receive passive aggressive replies from parents who think telling the truth is rude and who simply cannot or will not understand how appalling it is that they are even raising this as a legitimate question.
There is always another option for a parent. There are no other options for people in wheelchairs. Having a child is not a disability. Full stop.
I agree with some of what you say but not all – some parents have no choice but to use public transport with a pushchair or pram and there isn’t another option. Having separate designated areas for wheelchairs and pushchairs would mean situations such as the one that has resulted in this court case wouldn’t arise.
What other crappy options do you think we possibly have then? We could use a baby back killer (otherwise known as a sling or pouch)
We could take a baby carrier (too heavy to take baby very far in that, especially if out for the day)
We could take them out in the car although a lot of us can’t afford to have a car.
Or we could put them into their buggies where both the babies and the mother are much more comfortable. Mothers and babies are human beings too and their right to ride the bus is equal to that of a disabled person. Toddler buggies (usually age two plus) are able to be folded. Newborn baby buggies are not able to be folded and why should a mother move if she was there first and had done everything in her power before getting the bus to make sure that she got to the bus stop ontime?!
We could
“Mothers and babies … right to ride the bus is equal to that of a disabled person”
No it isn’t. Not morally, and not legally.
I’ll let Baroness Hale’s judgment make the point. She is a mother, a grandmother, and a regular public transport user. She’s non-disabled – but seems to have significant empathy and analytical skills you seemingly lack.
“It scarcely needs
stating that they face particular difficulties in getting about and thus playing as full a part as they can in the life of the community. Without the ability to travel they risk becoming socially isolated and losing confidence in themselves. But their journeys need even greater planning than do those of people who are not wheelchair users”
“The Court of Appeal, in my view, fell into the trap of assuming that the claims of disabled travellers were no different from the claims of any other person wishing to use the buses. They are not. Disabled people are, for very good reasons, a special case.”
“The second sort of objection is that there will be some circumstances in which it is not reasonable to expect an existing occupier to vacate the wheelchair space. This is so, although it is important to bear in mind that non-disabled people are not entitled to be treated in the same way as disabled people. There is no duty to make reasonable adjustments for them.”
“It is also difficult to see why the Recorder was wrong to say that the company could make the requirement to leave the space a term of its conditions of carriage, in breach of which a passenger could be required to leave the bus. This is no more unreasonable than requiring passengers to refrain from eating messy or smelly foods or drinking alcohol.”
So you don’t have the same right to travel as a disabled person. You certainly don’t have the same right to occupy a wheelchair space.
Your moral compass appears to have gone askew; perhaps consider resetting it.
Mind you, most people experience disability at some point in their lives. You are only temporarily able bodied; it is reasonably likely you will at some point experience the barriers disabled people experience every day for the rest of their lives. If this happens to you, I hope it prompts an epiphany and consequent realisation at how unacceptable and abhorrent your attitude is.
I’m sorry but I don’t think that it is unacceptable. You say that the journeys of disabled people take a lot more planning. If you were a parent or Carer for children and babies then you would realise the amount of planning that has to go into every detail of our day. Including bus and transport timings!
We must all (the disabled and non disabled) have respect for one another. I’m guessing your not a parent and in which case you can’t possibly have any understanding of any of the difficulties that parents face on a daily basis. Equally I am not disabled and cannot understand the difficulties of a disabled person.
The last time I checked busses where a form of public transport. Are mothers and babies somehow a lesser member of public than disabled people or are we equal? I would like to Think that we are equal. Equality to me does not mean preferential treatment over others, it means being treated as any other member of public. Everybody misses a bus sometimes or has to wait for the next one. This is a fact of life. Also.. whose to say that your journey or your appointment that you have to get to is more important than anybody else’s? Yes I do admit that it technically is a wheel chair space and we should make every effort to move within reason.
I see that you have actually brought this case to court. You have fought again to be able to use the wheelchair space and I commend you for that however… would it not have been more worthwhile to fight for more accessible busses for everyone? In my opinion it would have been. All this court case has really done is create a wedge between mothers and babies and wheelchair users which is really sad and shouldn’t have to be that way. I am currently fighting with a few other nannies as well to have priority buggy spaces put onto all busses.
I’ve seen a lot of people on here saying that if you use public transport then you should buy a buggy specifically for that. Whilst I can understand the reasoning for saying this I must also point out that most buggies for children under two do not fold up and have extra padding to support the formation of their spinal cords
Probably screaming because you made the poor little thing sit in a dirty train toilet the entire journey. Babies are allowed on public transport and if others want to use that transport then they have to accept that there may be a crying baby. Your cruel making him stay in a smelly toilet.
Its a hard one. I think if I was able to move then I would. But normally I would have detached Hollys car seat and sat her next to me on a seat with the buggy folded up. But I don’t think she was outwit her rights not to move.
I would move too, or if that wasn’t possible and she wasn’t in a rush this woman could have got off the bus and waited for the next one…
Well,this was certainly interesting to read. We don’t have the blessing of public transport here, so it is not an issue. However, it seems the wise thing would be for them to have areas for both. Practically speaking…#KCACOLS
It’s a tricky one isn’t it. Both wheelchair users and prams should be accessible when boarding a bus but the buses don’t seem to be big enough for everyone. I was lucky enough not to need to use buses much when my two were younger. Designated areas do seem like a good idea.Thanks so much for linking up at #KCACOLS. Hope you come back again next Sunday.
What a great post and debating point. True equality, although of course desirable, is pretty much unachievable in a practical sense so the best possible options need to be made available. Then, you need people to work together and help each other. That would be great! I’ll be interested too to see the ruling.
Mainy
#KCACOLS
You make such a good point about he need for two areas. I always feel slightly guilty about using the wheelchair space and dread having to move #KCACOLS
This is a no brainer for me – you have legs that work you blopdy get off the bus! Yes it’s an inconvenience but those spaces are expressly for disabled people, end of. I’ve seen a wheelchair user in this exact same position before and it was awful. I would get off. It’s like people who won’t stand up and offer seats to the elderly or pregnant – seriously, what’s wrong with you? Sorry for ranting! #KCACOLS
But whose to say that one person arriving at their destination on time is more important than another?
I can’t say I’ve had much personal experience of this having only been on (a very empty) bus once with my son. I’d certainly feel awkward if a wheelchair user came on – I think I’d get off and wait for the next one. Taking the buggy with me obviously #KCACOLS
It has been a long while since I used a buggy on a bus, but I think there should be space for them and wheelchairs. This way everyone is happy.
#KCACOLS
interesting debate. fortunately I haven’t used a bus for maybe 20 years?! as a new mum, I did feel really awkward using my pram when entering a small shop on our high street. the door was really narrow and some older people in the shop were really rude, going on about the size of prams. I nearly turned around and said stuff it, this is why I buy stuff online and small shops like this are going under! support your local community, which means mums, people in wheelchairs and whoever else. also going out and about with a pram makes me realise how unfit a lot of places are for people in wheelchairs – steps/no ramps etc. it must be a complete nightmare. as for the woman on the bus – if it were me, I would have tried to hold my baby or move over to make space. it’s up to buses to cater though for their audience – what if you had 4 wheelchairs want to get on? then what?! #KCACOLS
This is a difficult one – I am sympathetic to wheelchair users, and of course if it’s practical to do so then I think most parents don’t have a problem in folding up the pushchair or getting off if neccesary. But I have to say that the reality of travelling on a bus with a pushchair is not at all fun – like you said, it’s a journey of constant anxiety of ‘am I about to be turfed off this bus if a wheelchair user wants to come on’. I think it would hep the situation hugely if you were offered a ticket for another bus ride, but it seems that you’re just expected to get off and pay again! #˚KCACOLS
When I had a pram before my girls started walking everywhere, I hated travelling on a bus and waiting nervously. I think I have only been on the bus once where a wheelchair has come but there was space on the opposite side. I do think there should be a space for prams. But my thing is…. if people are sitting in a wheelchair / pram space… they will move if a wheelchair comes but if a pram moves.. very rarely will they move! I’ve had some right awkward ones. I will never fold a pram.
#KCACOLS
I almost don’t feel I’m at liberty to comment on this because I’ve never boarded a bus with a buggy or stroller. Although I’m kind of in defense of the wheelchair user. UNLESS it’s a buggy. Buggies are impossible to collapse especially if you have your tiny baby sitting in them, but if it’s a stroller, then they tend to fold down quite small. I know it’s a pain unloading the sodding thing and organizing children in the meantime. But the person in the wheelchair doesn’t have the option to collapse theirs down. So unless it’s a buggy, I think wheelchairs have priority. Although if I was the one with the stroller and two toddlers I’d be cursing the person who made me collapse it. But it’s an interesting topic, one that definitely lights fires in many people! #kcacols
Oooh, now this is a really tough one. I was on the bus with Cygnet at the weekend and had to remove Cygnet from his buggy as a wheelchair user got on and I lifted my buggy (without Cygnet in it) on to the luggage rack. I felt that it was right for me to do so and wasn’t the least bit put out. Having said that, Cygnet was awake, I didn’t have loads of shopping and could easily make space. Not all mums are so lucky, not all babies are awake! An interesting debate. I will be interested to hear the Supreme Court ruling. Pen x #KCACOLS
I haven’t had to travel on a bus too many times with the pram, but when I have done it did find it extremely stressful. Maybe the answer is to make the buses more frequent so they are not overcrowded and that there is room for all #KCACOLS
I’ll be interested to see the outcone of this. I have gone on buses with the pushchair which I have been made to put down due to other and it’s a nightmare. Totally agree they need separate areas for both. Thanks for linking up to #JustAnotherLinky xx
I honestly found travelling on the bus with a pushchair so much of a pain, I am glad I can drive now! Prams aren’t always easy to fold up especially with a sleeping baby to deal with too. It doesn’t sit right with me that either the wheelchair user or the parent and their child should have to sit and wait for the next bus. I wonder what can be done though as there doesn’t seem to be the spaces on the buses for all the people and an extra pushchair only area? #KCACOLS
Separate areas probably wouldn’t work. There’s just no room for them. I think it’s a case of using common sense. If a wheelchair user wishes to board and there is someone with a buggy there, if they CAN fold their pushchair, then they should. But if they can’t, they can’t. That’s the end of it. I was once refused entry to a bus with the buggy because there was a wheelchair on board. Not a wheelchair user. Just the empty chair. In that situation I think the common sense and “look after your fellow human” approach would have been for the wheelchair to be folded. After all, my baby can’t walk either…
It’s such a hard one because sometimes we HAVE to travel by bus and babies can’t stand just like wheelchair users can’t. I think a lot of it is down to respect for one another. If we all used our common sense, the world would be a better place. #KCACOLS
Great article – well done for highlighting. It’s a difficult one. I can see it from both points of view. I do think if we had better public transport that would help – better and more frequent buses so waiting for the next bus isn’t such an issue. I’ve only ever taken the bus with the buggy on holiday so I’d not really come across this issue before so I’m glad you have highlighted it. #KCACOLS
I’ve not used the bus but I wrote a blog post a few months ago after being told to disembark the train and get back on further down at the wheelchair access (by the toilets) with other pushchair users, there were 5 of us crammed in and standing space only with no room for anyone to access the toilets and definitely no space for wheelchair users. I was told I was a health and safety hazard putting my pushchair near the doors of another carriage ( still access toom) despite the fact that bikes and luggage regularly block access and at rush hour people are crammed in like sardines. The company responded by saying that they have the right to ask parents to fold up pushchairs or not be allowed to travel – but like you say, this is tricky when you are trying to hold a baby, plus change bag (and shopping!) whilst collapsing a pushchair into two parts. I think public transport is equally as stressful for wheelchair and pushchair users – but I am grateful that we do have such good anti discrimination laws in our country (for now) such as cafes and restaurants having to have accessible toilets etc. My mother in law lives in holland and after suffering a stroke is now in a wheelchair and hardly anywhere has a toilet she is able to access. It’s such a hard one. I agree there should be areas for both just like parking at a supermarket #KCACOLS
I used to avoid the bus like the plague and walk the 2.5 miles home after being asked to get off for a wheelchair or the bus being full several days in a row.Whilst I willingly gave up my space it’s frustrating that you can then miss another or 2 because the spaces are taken.I’m lucky that I drive now x #kcacols
I’m the guy who is bringing this case.
I am up for public transport being accessible to as many people as possible, with adaptations as required, including buggy spaces. On the route in question the buses do now have a buggy space as well as a wheelchair space, and that’s great. Though the original judge made the same point as Harriet above: whilst separate spaces may help they won’t sort the problem fully as there could still be people who refuse to vacate the wheelchair space.
As you note, the wheelchair spaces are there because disabled people campaigned for them. They are designed specifically for wheelchair users. Low floor buses are in use because of wheelchair users; if it wasn’t for us, there would be two steps and a pole up the middle as there always was.
It is good that the improved accessibility of buses has improved the situation for other people, not just wheelchair users. But it should be remembered that this improvement of accessibility is put in to enable wheelchair users to access the bus. The side effect of the improved accessibility for other people, e.g. people with buggies, is a useful side-effect – but the resultant use by others must not be allowed to undermine the core intent of accessibility for wheelchair users.
As our QC put it, it is not right to identify the problem as a competition for space between wheelchair users and parents with buggies, because wheelchair users have been given the right to wheelchair space by Parliament. At the moment, Parliament has not granted any such right for buggy users.
“We say we have a particular problem as wheelchair users and we have been given a particular solution, and we do object to the solution to other problems being grafted on in some way that undermines the strength of the solution we say Parliament has given (us).”
If parents and guardians want to campaign for a legal obligation for buggy spaces, and for the right to occupy them with buggies, then I would support them 100% as I am a strong believer in public transport for all. At the moment, however, the wheelchair space (and low floor buses) are a legal requirement out of a duty to make public transport for wheelchair users. This must not be undermined by the small proportion of other users who refuse to make reasonable effort to ensure it is available to disabled people.
I don’t think there’s really a debate to be had. It’s difficult for a pushchair user to fold, but it’s impossible for a wheelchair user to fold. If you know you’ll be travelling on public transport, you get an easy-to-fold pushchair – we had an easy fold travel system, and an umbrella fold stroller. Wheelchair users don’t have that option; they can only get the wheelchair that meets their needs. That or you use a carrier/sling or reins until your little one is old enough to either sit on the seat or hold your hand while you fold.
If I couldn’t fold (I have mobility issues myself and folding pushchairs usually ends with me dislocating something), I’d rather get off and wait for another bus than make a wheelchair user wait. Paths are a lot more pushchair friendly than they are wheelchair friendly, so if I need to walk some of the way, it’s easier for me to do it than for a wheelchair user.
In an ideal world, there would be designated pushchair spaces and designated wheelchair spaces (or at the very least, nice people on every bus who’ll hold your little one while you fold), but until then precedence has to be given for wheelchairs, and I think the mum who refused to move because her baby was sleeping, was being very selfish indeed.
#KCACOLS
It’s impossible to fold a buggy whilst holding a baby unless you want your baby dropped on its head
Really interesting. I don’t think either take priority. I think they should maybe look at the configuration of buses. They want to encourage the use of public transport so they need to make it accessible for everyone. I’m not sure the solution but there has to be one. I also am interested to see what the supreme court decides. #KCACOLS xx
[…] The Supreme Court is due to rule whether wheelchair users should take priority over parents with buggies, and I was invited onto the show after I wrote this post on wheelchairs vs buggies and the big bus debate. […]
I saw you on TV and you made very valid comments. Buses should provide room for prams and pyshchairs. My two year old granddaughter is developmentally delayed due to Down Syndrome and cant walk unlike other kids her age. Her pram is in effect a wheelchair. She has very few facial features of Down Syndrome. We have lost count of the times we have tried to explain that to some people on the bus.
I feel for you – what an awful and awkward situation to be in. We should definitely have allocated spaces for both.
Thank you. I have always born in mind that there are disabled people who aren’t in a traditional “wheelchair” who need to use the wheelchair space in order to travel. I am acutely aware that the Supreme Court judgment means that disabled people who aren’t wheelchair users will be asked to justify themselves on a frequent basis, and will be subject to unpleasant and inaccurate assumptions by drivers and passengers. Utterly unacceptable and regrettable.
The judge in County Court put it well: the issue is abuse of the space by non-disabled non-wheelchair users. He expressly encoded that disabled people who aren’t wheelchair users may have legitimate need of the space to travel. I wish his judgment had been reasserted.
If there’s anything I can do or say to limit the impact on you or on other non-wheelchair-using disabled people who need access to the wheelchair space, please do let me know.
Thanks so much for coming back to comment – and well done on the verdict, which I think is 100% right. Sadly this is a debate which I fear will rumble on and on though…
First come first serve! If not space the wheelchair user needs to wait until next bus!
I think in most situations it would be possible to accommodate everyone with a bit of common sense and a helping hand from other passengers…
Wheelchair users should get priority, if not then the rest of us should complain as people with a pushchair pay for 1 seat and then take 2 for the pram ane another for the parent. Other people pay full fare and are expected to stand up for the prams. Is that fair???
I hadn’t considered that point before…
I completely disagree with these comments. Wheelchair uses get disability payouts to pay for transport etc..why the hell do they have to use the bus. I once had to wait more than an hour, in the freezing cold, with my little grandson because they, for some reason, had priority. Seriously, after waiting another half hour, just as the bus was due, another wheelchair user went straight to the front and informed me he had priority, I was then told by the driver I couldn’t get on as there wasn’t enough room. Please don’t bother telling me I’m cold hearted and unsimpathetic as my own daughter was a wheelchair user.
Lol. I’m glad I’m not your daughter.
“I’m not racist, my best friend is black.”
It’s selfish and wilfully ignorant people such as you that has meant the existing priority for disabled people has had to be strengthened.
Here is a simple solution
Take a row of seats out of the busses and make room for buggies.
In the mean time
Passengers should be obliged to help a mother fold a buggy and hold her shopping and hold her baby if they are able.
Failing that then the driver should be obliged to help.
If the mother has to vacate the bus all together then she should get a full refund of the bus fare plus a free ticket for the next bus or money for a taxi if she is unable to wait for the next one. (In some areas busses are one an hour)
Busses shouldn’t be called public transport because they do not cater for the public. No member of the public should feel that they have to leave a bus so that another member of public can use it.
Last year I took the children I nanny for to the wetland canter in Barnes. We have no choice but to take the bus home. The busses back to our area come one an hour. I had a three year old, a baby bag and a 9 month old who cannot walk or stand. I have the bus app on my phone and planned our journey home to coincide with the children’s lunch time and the babies sleep time. As we got onto the bus a disabled woman arrives at the bus stop and informs us that she has priority. (It’s an old bus with only one space). The driver apologised to us and told us that we would have to wait for the next one. Waiting for the next bus meant that the older one had his lunch an hour and a half late meaning I had to travel with a hungry crying toddler and other irritated bus users plus a tired hungry and crying baby whose lunch time had passed by that point and was then eating into his sleep time. He has about half an hours sleep when we eventually got home before I had to wake him up again otherwise he would never have slePt that night and I had two children who where completely overwhelmed with tiredness and also had to deal with getting into trouble with my employer because of it all. Folding a pushchair with a baby may seem like the easiest solution but it creates more problems than it solves as I’ve just explained. It is a wheelchair space but we really need priority buggy spaces and the legal right to use them. On most London busses there are two wheelchair spaces. We don’t need two very often so one should be for wheelchairs and one for buggies. I also think that we can take seats out of the bus and just have a few for the pregnant and elderly etc. When we do this then and only then will busses actually equate to
Being transport for the public. Even if I were disabled, unless I had an emergency or a child myself then I would not see mothers or nannies left on the side of the road having missed their bus just for my benefit.